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SquawkBox for Microsoft Flight Simulator
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MELKOR
Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 17
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| TFaudree wrote: | | MELKOR wrote: | | TFaudree wrote: | | I disagree with your idea about double clicking or right clicking. That makes the way you tune your radio unrealistic. One of the things that really bothers me with things in their current state is that pilots simply don't listen to the frequency that you tell them to contact. I might as well be speaking dolphin language to some of them. Its a 5 digit number...not that difficult to remember. |
I have NO idea where that is coming from... my point is the TIME required to tune, not my questionable short-term recall!! 
Thanks,
- Bill |
That comment came from me thinking you wanted a simplistic way of getting around having to remember the frequency. I have run across many pilots that insist on having SB tune the radios in the way you mentioned because of the fact that they are too inattentive to listen to the new frequency they are being assigned. This is normally accompanied by lack of ability to maintain speeds, altitudes, or fly routes on which they were cleared.
I apologize if there appeared to be any doubt on my part of your ability to recall numbers in the short-term. No offense was meant and I hope none taken. |
None taken, thanks!
- Bill |
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dweese
Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 1720
Location: Belleville ON Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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I just plan ahead, most aircraft panels have 2 radios each with a standby. When you are with Centre coming in, tune the APP and Tower freq then in the standby or comm2 radio. Just like the real world would.
Sure sometimes you may have more then one APP controller, so put them both in, most likely if the airport is running 2 APP controllers you have to talk to both anyways but not always. Then set tower and ground when you have a second.
Or load the gauge for servinfo, it supports point and click for radio controls |
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Mark Brummett
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 287
Location: Tulsa, OK (yeah, I'm a hick)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| jgolin wrote: | | PegAir wrote: | Its sad that Joel is letting ATC dictate the PILOT interface. I think the 49k pilots should be allowed to ask for what they want THEIR inteface to look like.
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As has been said, there was much discussion about this during the development on these forums from all sorts of people. |
Absolutely. How many pilots in real life get a clickable list of all ATC around them? None.
What we, as an organization, were striving for, was realism. There was a lot of heated debate during the testing phase, but it was decided to stick with realism.
And if the 49K pilots could code their own client, then THEY could use whatever interface THEY like. As it is, only two groups have stepped up to the plate in the last three years to even make a client. I'm happy to have the option and grateful to both groups for providing a FREE client. |
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Luke
Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 357
Location: Roswell, GA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Brummett wrote: | | What we, as an organization, were striving for, was realism. There was a lot of heated debate during the testing phase, but it was decided to stick with realism. |
If we were striving for realism, then we would forbid pilots from operating aircraft that in real life required a flight crew of no fewer than four individuals to safely operate. Yet we allow it all the time. "realism" is merely the fig leaf we chose to cloak things in. VATSIM allows all sorts of unrealistic operations when it chooses to; the simple fact is that this is something that they didn't feel like doing. Let's call it for what it is.
| Quote: | | And if the 49K pilots could code their own client, then THEY could use whatever interface THEY like. As it is, only two groups have stepped up to the plate in the last three years to even make a client. I'm happy to have the option and grateful to both groups for providing a FREE client. |
That's more like it - simply put, the authors didn't want to add the option. Let's be honest about the reasons why it wasn't added.
After cursing and swearing with the atrocious interface that FS9 provides for tuning radio stacks, this is a disaster in the making. If we wanted "realism" we wouldn't use a mouse to tune our radios. 
Luke |
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Martin Georg/EDDF
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 315
Location: Frankfurt am Main/Germany
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:48 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
the "realism" argument was just one aspect. Another, IMHO also very important aspect was to help controllers. During big events, when it getīs really busy, a FIR is is often divided into several ATC sectors. These sectorīs canīt be depicted by Servinfo or similar software, and they all carry the same sector identifier. The only indicator to distinguish them is their middle initial in their callsign, and their frequency. For example, the Frankfurt (EDFF) FIR in Germany getīs split into up to 5 lower and one upper sector (EDFF_P_CTR, EDFF_O_CTR, EDFF_U_CTR ...).
It would be a pain for pilots, to carefully study and understand this huge list with 6 similar-looking stations, and a lot of mistakes during frequency changes would be the result. And this in the middle of a large event where controllers are really busy and have better things to do than searching other sectors for closed datablocks. Focussing on the frequency only (and nothing else IS the current situation) helps to prevent such situations. |
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dfinz
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: |
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Ever since SB3 was released may I add that a level of realism to the online flying arena that I was not expecting was handed to me.
The old days of actually finding and double clicking on a controllers entry in the SB window took me longer than it does today of tuning VHF1 to the instructed frequency. (Especially as Martin examplifies above with the sectorisation of complex FIRs and approach sectors).
This however is only my personal evaluation of the situation and we all operate and find things differently.
One thing that hasnt been touched on in the thread, is the fact that all controllers should have a basic understanding that the blips that they are providing a service to are NOT real pilots, do NOT fly in a crew complement of at least two or more, and are actually sitting behind a PC, Keyboard and periphery that is NOT like any real world flight deck/cockpit environment.
When taking the above into account, I am certain that when a pilot does not tune in within seconds of an instructed frequency, he/she may be forgiven and not frowned upon too seriously.
Some of us will do it quicker than others, (so my wife keeps saying to me  ) either due to evolved technique or experience and familiarity.
I am personally glad that the days of double-click are not with us anymore. (Only one opinion out of thousands of members).
Best Regards
D Finney |
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Luke
Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 357
Location: Roswell, GA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Martin Georg/EDDF wrote: | | It would be a pain for pilots, to carefully study and understand this huge list with 6 similar-looking stations, and a lot of mistakes during frequency changes would be the result. |
Martin, I recognize the issue you bring up, and if I recall correctly - I addressed this issue when we had the original discussion many months ago. Click to Tune would cause problems if people clicked on the wrong position, yes. However, your claim doesn't address the other (more significant) danger - what happens if people merely select the wrong frequency?
As it stands, if you select the wrong controller from a list then you pop onto the wrong frequency and will get sorted out quite quickly. However, if you select the wrong frequency manually, there is no guarantee you will be on an active frequency at all. So instead of being in ATC contact, albeit with the wrong controller, you may be talking to thin air. If you forget your previous frequency (easy to do if your radio stack has no standby frequencies, like mine) you're pretty much lost and out of contact.
Is that better than selecting the wrong controller to talk to? You tell me.
| Quote: | | Focussing on the frequency only (and nothing else IS the current situation) helps to prevent such situations. |
That's assuming that pilots will take the same approach as you. My experience has been that most of them are quite busy and are searching for an ergonomic alternative to allow them to more reliably and quickly set the right frequency.
Cheers!
Luke |
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Luke
Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 357
Location: Roswell, GA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| dfinz wrote: | | When taking the above into account, I am certain that when a pilot does not tune in within seconds of an instructed frequency, he/she may be forgiven and not frowned upon too seriously. |
There are two issues I have with this approach.
First, there are times when switching frequencies expeditiously is important - most critically when one is on final approach and handflying the aircraft. The last thing I want to be doing in such a situation is fumbling with my radio stack and twiddling the knobs (dang blast it, shifted the left side when I meant to shift the right side numbers) while I'm on short final. I think there was a discussion of this on the VATSIM forums a few months back, and the amazing suggestion was made that TWR wouldn't mind if you weren't able to contact them on final, and simply landed without clearance. 
That puts us in the interesting situation of maintaining realism in radio tuning, while making realism in the trivial and obscure area of landing clearances somewhat optional.
The other issue I have is that this is a case of ergonomics. When I am in busy airspace flying an aircraft, I rarely remember the entire frequency. Generally speaking, I have the ServInfo gauge (or Delta Virtual ACARS) open, and I remember the facility type and usually the last two digits of the frequency, or the name. From there, it's usally simple to find the right controller and select. I've never once selected the wrong frequency, because the names give me valuable contextual cues as to what I need to be looking for.
Again, in real life on a commercial airliner the PNF is handling the comms for the pilot, and can dedicate his time to paying more attention to frequencies than a hobbyist fulfilling several roles at once. Once VATSIM goes to frequencies only, I predicted then and I predict again that there are going to be MORE problems, not less.
Cheers!
Luke |
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Craig Moulton
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 567
Location: Lompoc, CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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To each his own I suppose. I have had no issues with tuning via the radio stack. Of course I'm normally prepared ahead of time so all I have to do is hit the button to swap the stby freq with the active freq.
We can rehash the entire discussion that was had many months ago, but I think it is a done deal. Perhaps there will be another client available in the future that will cater to those that would prefer the other method. |
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MELKOR
Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 17
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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You know, it's funny. When I posted, I had no idea that my little suggestion would strike such a nerve in people!!
May I assume that this was at least decided democratically? If so, I guess we just have to accept the concensus.
Thanks! 
- Bill |
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Luke
Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 357
Location: Roswell, GA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| MELKOR wrote: | | May I assume that this was at least decided democratically? |
ROFL
Joel made his decision in his software. I made my decision in my software. Neither decision was made democratically, but we're both happy.
Cheers!
Luke |
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MELKOR
Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 17
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke wrote: | | MELKOR wrote: | | May I assume that this was at least decided democratically? |
ROFL
Joel made his decision in his software. I made my decision in my software. Neither decision was made democratically, but we're both happy.
Cheers!
Luke |
haha, no doubt!
- Bill |
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Martin Georg/EDDF
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 315
Location: Frankfurt am Main/Germany
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:03 am Post subject: |
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Hello Luke,
quite a few things to answer
| Quote: | | what happens if people merely select the wrong frequency? |
Most likely you end up without an active frequency, as you stated. However, with SB3 you will notice that instantly because SB3 playe a distinctive error tone if you try to press the PTT button.
| Quote: | | As it stands, if you select the wrong controller from a list then you pop onto the wrong frequency and will get sorted out quite quickly. |
Exactly that is not the case, especially on big events when it getīs crowded. I donīt know if you control, but let me tell you that datablocks in DSR mode are closed, and the only thing we see is the squawk code and the altitude. No look what a regular, correct call-in tells me: "DAL123, FL320". Your callsign and your flightlevel are the only things needed. Of course I will quickly notice that you are not tracked by me, and that I got no handoff for you - but WHERE you are?????? Exactly that is the point, and this is where I will loose my focus and the time I need to control my aircraft.
| Quote: | | The last thing I want to be doing in such a situation is fumbling with my radio stack and twiddling the knobs |
Fully agreed. However, if you need to fumble with radio knobs on short final, the you obviously did something wrong before. As I said, frequency changes donīt come by surprise. The TWR frequency is even stated on the ILS approach chart, and the frequency should be part of the approach briefing. So good airmainship would be to have the TWR frequency pre-tuned in your standby radio - and then switching is just a matter of hitting the transfer switch.
| Quote: | | and the amazing suggestion was made that TWR wouldn't mind if you weren't able to contact them on final, and simply landed without clearance. |
I think we both agree that this advise was nonsense .
| Quote: | | When I am in busy airspace flying an aircraft, I rarely remember the entire frequency. |
Excuse me to be very direct here, but thatīs a lame excuse. If you canīt remember it, write it down. You need to know your business, nobody can free you from this
| Quote: | | I've never once selected the wrong frequency, because the names give me valuable contextual cues as to what I need to be looking for. |
This may be right for the area where you are flying, but it isnīt for other parts of the world. For example, the radio callsign "Langen Radar" applies to about 15 different stations in Germany, with about 5-10 different sector IDīs (EDFF, EDDF, EDLL, EDDL, EDDK, EDDN, EDDS ...). Now tell me how to detect the right one .
| Quote: | | Again, in real life on a commercial airliner the PNF is handling the comms for the pilot, and can dedicate his time to paying more attention to frequencies than a hobbyist fulfilling several roles at once. Once VATSIM goes to frequencies only, I predicted then and I predict again that there are going to be MORE problems, not less. |
This is a general issue, not only related to frequency tuning. Substituting the missing PNF is not an easy task. I wouldnīt go so far and recommend some of the addons available for this (FS Crew etc.) because I donīt like them. However, everyone hase to find out personally how he can get enough free personal ressources to conduct the flight in a safe manner. Perhaps hardware radios are the answer?
Personally I have flown hundrets of hours in very busy airspace, and never had a single problem tuning my frequency correctly. Itīs a matter of proper airmanship, preplanning, and knowledge about your aircraft. |
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Luke
Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 357
Location: Roswell, GA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Martin Georg/EDDF wrote: | | Most likely you end up without an active frequency, as you stated. However, with SB3 you will notice that instantly because SB3 playe a distinctive error tone if you try to press the PTT button. |
Fair enough. So we'll save a few seconds if we tune to the wrong frequency because SB3 will warn us right away. (I assime since FSINN uses the same voice library it will do the same thing?) But the problem remains that if we move to a frequency-only world and the person switches to the wrong frequency and cannot switch back for whatever reason, then they've now lost all contact with ATC and don't know what to tune to, to get back in touch until a controller gives them the trusty .contactme message.
| Quote: | | I will quickly notice that you are not tracked by me, and that I got no handoff for you - but WHERE you are?????? Exactly that is the point, and this is where I will loose my focus and the time I need to control my aircraft. |
Let me ask you a question I genuinely don't know the answer to - as a controller, which is more distracting to you: either an aircraft flying around on your frequency that you're not tracking, or one flying around that's not on any frequency? I don't know how often my scenario is going to play out, but I just feel an ergonomic disaster coming on.
| Quote: | | However, if you need to fumble with radio knobs on short final, the you obviously did something wrong before. ... So good airmainship would be to have the TWR frequency pre-tuned in your standby radio - and then switching is just a matter of hitting the transfer switch. |
That's assuming that your aircraft has a standby radio. My DC-8 and CV-880s do not.
| Quote: | | Excuse me to be very direct here, but thatīs a lame excuse. If you canīt remember it, write it down. You need to know your business, nobody can free you from this |
Your two previous quotes bring up an issue that I think is at the root of the problem. This whole radio tuning business has been moved forward by a subset of VATSIM pilots and controllers that treat online flight and ATC as something very close to real world operations, with the same level of preparation and attention as the real world. Changes are being made with that in mind, and the rest of us can just "do it right".
The root problem I have with that is that the majority of our pilot membership IMO is not like that at all. Delta Virtual is the world's largest virtual airline, and the only major North American VA that doesn't require VATSIM membership or online flight, and because of this I see a lot of different folks come through the doors and get introduced to online flight. Many of us see an ATC environment as a way to fly in a more realistic environment, yes, but also to share a flight together and as a social environmet with our fellow pilots and VA members. That's why virtual airline events are so popular; they're social events as much as aviation events. We face this issue every day at Delta Virtual across all aspects of the pilot experience; balancing the "recreational pilots" with those who want the "realistic" environment. Any time we let the balance shift too far in one direction we run into problems.
If the level of preparation needed to fly effectively on VATSIM starts mirroring the real world, then you may see a dropoff in traffic. As it stands, I think the network faces a significant long-term strategic risk in that most of its VA traffic partners are implementing the same voice infrastructure as the "other network".
| Quote: | | This is a general issue, not only related to frequency tuning. Substituting the missing PNF is not an easy task. ... However, everyone hase to find out personally how he can get enough free personal ressources to conduct the flight in a safe manner. Perhaps hardware radios are the answer? |
... or perhaps software tools to automate the frequency change?  I agree with you - it's not just limited to radio tuning, but I think the ergonomics of most radio panels exacerbate the problem. It's a broader question of how do we allow a single untrained (vs. the real world) pilot to control an aircraft that may require up to four individuals to operate in real life?
Part of that complexity is reduced by FS not modeling all aircraft features. We also add modern tools to our aircraft (my CV-880s have a Bendix GPS that gives me fly-to-track and next waypoint distance/time) to help us out. I think automated tuning is another way to get around the missing PNF, and one of our goals is to get that functionality directly into the panel so that switching from CTR to APP or APP to TWR just involves flipping a switch on the panel. Again, my focus is on the end result; I want pilots to more relaibly select the right frequency, faster.
| Quote: | | Personally I have flown hundrets of hours in very busy airspace, and never had a single problem tuning my frequency correctly. Itīs a matter of proper airmanship, preplanning, and knowledge about your aircraft. |
Allow me to diplomatically suggest that not everyone takes the same level of dedication to their flight planning, but those individuals can still be an asset to the network.
Cheers!
Luke |
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PegAir
Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 135
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:55 am Post subject: |
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I don't wanna hear about "put the frequencies in ahead of time" because quite often TWR, or APP will pop up at the most inconspicous moment with a "contact me..." (or APP/CTR will hand me off at the last moment with "Tower just logged on contact him at..." and I'm trying to settle pitch in for final).
Also, one of the big deals in systems design is to not design a system to meet the exceptional case. Fly in's with multipe ATC all on line are WAY the exceptional case.
I guess I should follow my own words .. because I must be the exceptional case.
I do not fly instrument approaches so its all hands on
I have not spent lots of money to get go flight radios
I do not have a home made cockpit with tons of windows, and well placed keyboards.
So for me, doing the minority type of flying on vatsim, its alot easier, and more convient to point and click when these things happen.
Mind you .. I am not (or rather was not) always a point and click guy .. when I can I put stuff in ahead of time but .. putting it in ahead of time kinda goes against what Martin Georg said. If you might click on the wrong EDFF_x_CTR then you could just as easily preloaded the wrong EDFF_x_CTR.
I am obviously the exceptional case .. no one flies like I do .. you should ignore my concerns. |
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